Forums - The greatness that is Ken...(the return of the old school in mvc2!) Show all 39 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Fighting Game Discussion (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=8) -- The greatness that is Ken...(the return of the old school in mvc2!) (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1473) Posted by Cronk on 03:21:2001 09:33 PM: Honestly id have to say that the more i play this game the more bullsh-- i see and the more bullsh-- i learn. hehe, IMO im beginning to think ken is a legitamate top tier (top 5 hehe,um maybe), for a few simple reasons, one of which being that his command roll is also his wave dash. So why wave dash when you can double command roll?. Its so fast though! An with the correct assist, you could cross up crucify opponents all night.Tho im still learning the timing, I think itll be ultra effective. Especially with bison's recomended assist type (i thin kits the beta, or whichever one hits 6 times or so) you could actually cross up someone up to 3 maybe 4 times while they are blocking. (and my god his fierce uppercut goes though a LOT; even hail storms) Then again this maybe old news... and maybe ppl think along these lines already, however im thinking combos are a thing of the past, and is not what wins tournaments now days.the more pressure you can put on the better. More to come later...the limitless uses of instant flash kicks peace. Posted by LastGod VT on 03:21:2001 09:49 PM: Ummm, why he certainly ISN'T Top Tier... he's definitely a Second Tier... mainly because of the use of his AAA assist. His AAA is one of the best to counter Strider/Doom. But god forbid you're left with just Ken agaisnt a Top Tier. He'll die to Cable, he wobn't catch Blackheart, Magneto and Storm's rushdown game is 100x more effective than Kens, he hasnt got a prayer. Doom will just rape him, Spiral... well Spiral will cut him up. So will he is definitely a good character with a useful assist, he's definitely NOT in the top five. http://www.dontblamegames.com/superty/mvc2/mvc2-mbison-psycho.gif ~~ Psycho Crusher ~~ Posted by Cronk on 03:21:2001 10:08 PM: Man plz...Ken will cut down cable like crack on a glass table. Plain and simple, plus he's one of the most resourcfull pixies in tha game itself. Vs Doom; The caped menace is a memory...i mean one on one, no contest. Shoot photons, and youll be eating Dragon punch soup...ihop style (for breakfast lunch and dinner) That i know for certain. Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:21:2001 11:31 PM: The most effective Shoto in the game is Ryu... Ryu actually has a BEAM fireball..(Shinkuhadoken)This automatically bumps him up..Now you are probably thinking "Well Akuma has a beam fireball AND other good supers" Yes! That is true..but Akumas health is @ the bottom of the barrel..if he gets hit by Cable or Storm with any super its almost HALF DAMAGE kids...Ryu just is more manageble in this game than Ken...(keep in mind I am not saying Ken is garbage but read below) Kens uppercut is GREAT as an assist but one on one against top tier he cant cut it.. Imagine Ken Vs Storm for a second.. Storm Flys up and pressures ken with her tornado attacks...HE CANT UPPERCUT as high as storm can Fly..BESIDES THAT if she is flying and has an assist..she can call it out to pressure ken..someone like Blackheart or Sentinel.. Realistically Ken is good with a nice assist to back him up..but he has alot against him one on one..like these issues.. [Not having a decent fireball that goes anywhwere] Lets face it...Kens fireball is about as effective as Dans.. [No decent supers] Ken has his Shoyureppa which doesnt always connect the second hits EVEN if it hits perfectly the first time..His "Column" uppercut isnt really effective against beamers..and his Autocombo attack just plain sucks..you cant really link it.. there are a few more factors..like...his roll is USELESS...against a good player his roll move would get OWNED... Ken also has trouble against chippers...BECAUSE he just gets locked down 24/7 without having a decent beam.... anyway..I cant stay and chat long..but here is how I would rate the Shotos.. 2nd Tier... Ryu first..(best one on one skills) Ken second..(best shoto assist) Akuma last...(decent change ups with supers) Anyway...thats pretty much how I see it...later.. HVS ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif Look into my eyes....see the realness? Posted by Cronk on 03:22:2001 01:10 AM: Granted, the sky is blue, rain does fall, and ken does have a bull-- fireball. So what! Not that i think its absurd to say that not having a projectile assist in this game automatically demotes you to second "string"...but when u look at it realistically, the absence of a true fireball is made up by the presence of incresed foot speed. For one, ryu can be more abused than not simply on the notion that his slower than death fireballs call be easily cancled out by any other asist, or preferably counter projectile in this game; a hurricane kick that hits not twice, but once; low damage combos, unless you count a shin-sho (good luck finding a way to validate that waste of 3 bars)and an uppercut with the vulnerablity of a bare ass on a hot stove. I beleive a lack versitility is the way i should put it and not to say ryu does not have his usefullness. Ryu manages a distance game much better than ken, but even a shoureppa can go through his projectiles. Hes a average character at best, but in this game; average gets you loses, gray hair and frustration. With ken however, his fireball would be considered more of an overrated weakness .d->f+PP is all you need in most cases and ive never found a problem linking it at all since the start up time is incredible. Not to mention a mashable kick throw, a great cross up short, and an 8 hit air combo to make high damage oppponents wet their pants...i think its time ryu took a back seat...plus id rather have Ken anchoring my troops in the 4th quarter. And i see you point on the roll, but it is effective once youve established yout timing with it.ppl used to say the same thing about psylockes roll, untill i showed them the light. same applies here too.All depends on how you set things up and on how unpredicatable your patterns become. That super fireball of ryu's is what makes him valuble tho, but when push comes to shove, id rather have ken backing me up. Posted by TS on 03:22:2001 02:12 AM: quote: Originally posted by Cronk: Not that i think its absurd to say that not having a projectile assist in this game automatically demotes you to second "string"... Ken has one of the best assists in the game. DP goes through everything. So I don't think that's what was being said. quote: but when u look at it realistically, the absence of a true fireball is made up by the presence of incresed foot speed. For one, ryu can be more abused than not simply on the notion that his slower than death fireballs call be easily cancled out by any other asist, or preferably counter projectile in this game; a hurricane kick that hits not twice, but once; low damage combos, unless you count a shin-sho (good luck finding a way to validate that waste of 3 bars)and an uppercut with the vulnerablity of a bare ass on a hot stove. Who goes around whiffing fireballs from full screen? Fireball super-cancelled into Shinkuu Hadoken beats a couple of things, btw. Though I'll grant you the fact that's a premeditated thing, and can't really be done on reaction. 2. The ability to do damage without using a super is really one of the big things Ryu lacks (Ryu's Hurricane Kick will only hit once unless you're opponent is either in the corner, or you have the right assist). So agreed. 3. Shin Shoryuken actually does good damage. Wouldn't say it's worth 3 levels though. 4. You under-estimate the amount of invulnerability Ryu's DP has. Jab DP beats pretty much everything, and his assist is OK for getting the pixes off of you (way off. waaaay off.) quote: I beleive a lack versitility is the way i should put it and not to say ryu does not have his usefullness. Ryu manages a distance game much better than ken, but even a shoureppa can go through his projectiles. That's actually a pretty bad idea. quote: Hes a average character at best, but in this game; average gets you loses, gray hair and frustration. Agree with the average at best part. quote: With ken however, his fireball would be considered more of an overrated weakness .d->f+PP is all you need in most cases and ive never found a problem linking it at all since the start up time is incredible. Not to mention a mashable kick throw, a great cross up short, and an 8 hit air combo to make high damage oppponents wet their pants...i think its time ryu took a back seat...plus id rather have Ken anchoring my troops in the 4th quarter. And i see you point on the roll, but it is effective once youve established yout timing with it.ppl used to say the same thing about psylockes roll, untill i showed them the light. same applies here too.All depends on how you set things up and on how unpredicatable your patterns become. That super fireball of ryu's is what makes him valuble tho, but when push comes to shove, id rather have ken backing me up. Ken has the ability to do damage without burning a super, and a good DP assist. And that's it. He really doesn't have much more over Ryu, and shares a few of his issues (lack of mobility, for one). Ken gets WORKED by Cable, I don't know what you're talking about. Ken dies to the newer Cable/Sent stuff, as well as the old Cable/Cyke stuff. Roll is useless unless you're up close, wavedash is better. Shoryuureppa is good. The first revoloution (Jab DP at the beggining) is invincible IIRC. Ken however, lacks the ability to do anything from any range other than close, and has issues getting there safely against some characters. He lacks the ability to punish assists safely unless he has an extra meter and somebody like Storm backing him up who he can DHC out to. He loses to Doom (can't catch him) Storm (ditto), Magneto (if he makes you whiff a DP, which he can do if he's good, you lose at least 40% vs a good Mag player. He has many other losses, but I won't get into those. Posted by KusanagiClan on 03:22:2001 02:25 AM: I just read a couple of these posts so if this has been stated already, it's not intentional. Ken can easily uppercut to a runaway storm via his normal jump or superjump into shoryuken. I don't know about the effectivness of this though, probably as effective as throwing psimitar's with cable. As for the actual topic, I really doubt Ken is in the top five, and a very slim chance that he can be bumped to top tier. Although highly unlikely, there's probably a hand full of second tier characters that have greater potential. Iceman for example, even though he's not top tier, I'd fear facing his turtling ass more than I would a ken. Ken has almost no air maneuverability, well not to the extent of actual top tiers, such as Magneto and Storm, which usually heavily rely on their ability to airdash all over the place. If Ken is on his own and has to deal with a good aaa, that alone will be an uphill battle for ken. Disregarding the point man he's up against... http://www.crosswinds.net/~vincentc/kofKyoAnimated6.gif The killing fields of Ca... Posted by *Magneto* on 03:22:2001 02:31 AM: Ken doesn't drain alot.But he is a well rounded character to play with.I'll try to come up with some good stuff for him. http://www.gamegen.com/fightgen/characters/mvc2-magnetostance.gif this will have to do... Posted by Cronk on 03:22:2001 02:58 AM: I see you points on that, but i pride my self on being able to stick close to anyone in this game even cable. Its jus speed plain and simple; rushtown USA.cable cant compete with that.one on one that is.Wave dash is great but its the same as his command roll, so id rather do the roll, twice.that wayyou dont whiff a wavedash motion, like evrybody always does (usually results in a fierce punch in the middle of nowhere) Mix in a few throws after a few dash in shorts to keep your opponent guessing...and stay away from super jumps.Normally i normall jump to keep on pressure...basically you can play ken as a turtle in most cases.then rush down once ppl get themselves cornrd..(ppl are really good at doing that) Posted by Jinmaster on 03:22:2001 03:17 AM: I don't even know why we are discussing this here. Ken sucks at catching anything that runs away. Any team with a Doom assist on it will nullify all roll attempts by Ken, assuming he actually gets that close wihtout taking a shitload of damage. In fact, if Cable sits there and just does standing fierce while calling doom and scimitaring if Ken jumps, ken never gets in. What is ken going to do? Punch super? Thats his only invincible move other than the Shoryuken that can be applied in this situation that will do anything at all, and its risky as hell. And hyperviper, Ryu is not the best shoto by any means, he's practically on the top of the lowest tier or so, if not lower. The move you mentioned, the shinku-haduken, is his ONLY means to deal damage to helpers and main characters, and therfore he dies completely to Cable and even worse to Storm. He cannot touch a Dhalsim with a lead. He looses soundly and has nothing to contribute toward fighting any top team that has sprung up in California in the last 6 months or so. At least Akuma can kill someone in two combos and Ken's DP is invincible(plus the glitch AC). All Ryu's assists suck. -Micah Posted by Jinmaster on 03:22:2001 03:21 AM: Oh and BTW Ken can pressure people who are at the top of the screen by superjumping and DPing. What exactly can Ryu do? Posted by Cronk on 03:22:2001 03:25 AM: I guess this is all assuming that the ken player put forth maximun effort without making mistakes. but still evn keep away with cable is not unbreakable. A patient ken player once he gets in can make the most of his chance and deal some good damge, and i still think good rushdown beats a good lockdown anyday. Just throw a lot.when was the last time youve seen a tech throw. just plain Chips will only get you so far Posted by Jinmaster on 03:22:2001 03:29 AM: I see tech throws every time I play. =) People can die to chip damage in under 15-20 seconds or so, sometimes less. I've personally ran for 50+ seconds with Storm Vs Cable/Clops in a tournament, and I've ran away for 40+ seconds with commando vs Viscants Storm, in a tournament. -Micah Posted by Lord Doom on 03:22:2001 03:55 AM: Ken is only good for a few reasons IMO, his air combo does a butt load of damage to anything, he has a super that is invincible at the start, and his AAA is pretty good. I still like Ryu better than Ken and Akuma for the simple fact that like Akuma and unlike Ken, Ryu can fight from a distance and he can take a hit better than Akuma and Ken. NOW YOU FACE DOOM! http://www.dragonballmanga.hpg.com.br/gifs/gohangif1.gif Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:22:2001 04:20 AM: quote: Originally posted by Jinmaster: I don't even know why we are discussing this here. Ken sucks at catching anything that runs away. Any team with a Doom assist on it will nullify all roll attempts by Ken, assuming he actually gets that close wihtout taking a shitload of damage. In fact, if Cable sits there and just does standing fierce while calling doom and scimitaring if Ken jumps, ken never gets in. What is ken going to do? Punch super? Thats his only invincible move other than the Shoryuken that can be applied in this situation that will do anything at all, and its risky as hell. And hyperviper, Ryu is not the best shoto by any means, he's practically on the top of the lowest tier or so, if not lower. The move you mentioned, the shinku-haduken, is his ONLY means to deal damage to helpers and main characters, and therfore he dies completely to Cable and even worse to Storm. He cannot touch a Dhalsim with a lead. He looses soundly and has nothing to contribute toward fighting any top team that has sprung up in California in the last 6 months or so. At least Akuma can kill someone in two combos and Ken's DP is invincible(plus the glitch AC). All Ryu's assists suck. -Micah Disagree...Akuma is practically GARBAGE in this game.. I have lots of top players that will agree with me.. I see Ryu players do ALOT more damage than Akuma KEN is better than Akuma..they totally NAILED Akuma with this game.. sorry..I disagree with you.. Oh and RYU is the best ONE on ONE shoto..he can play keepaway BETTER than either of the others..and this game pretty much is keepaway.. HVS ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif Look into my eyes....see the realness? Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:22:2001 04:23 AM: quote: Originally posted by Lord Doom: Ken is only good for a few reasons IMO, his air combo does a butt load of damage to anything, he has a super that is invincible at the start, and his AAA is pretty good. I still like Ryu better than Ken and Akuma for the simple fact that like Akuma and unlike Ken, Ryu can fight from a distance and he can take a hit better than Akuma and Ken. NOW YOU FACE DOOM! <IMG SRC="http://www.dragonballmanga.hpg.com.br/gifs/gohangif1.gif"> thank you..I totally agree with you.. Ken VS Cable one on one is toast...any GOOD Cable player should RAPE a Ken player everytime.. Ken has an assist and his Hurricane kick THATS IT.. his roll is pointless... his fireball is pointless.. his uppercut VS Cable would get an AHVB before he even hits the ground... Ken just isnt well rounded...sorry folks.. he NEEDS a good assist to stand on both feet..thats just the way it is.. forget the Ryu Akuma part...Ken just isnt god in this game..he isnt even CLOSE to top tier.. his assist is the ONLY thing that keeps him on the second tier bracket... other than that ..he isnt really good against any beamer character ANY of them... beamers RAPE Ken all day..and if they can fly its even worse.. ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif Look into my eyes....see the realness? Posted by BlackShinobi on 03:22:2001 04:40 AM: Ken Kicks Ass Ken takes bad damage, but so do most of the characters on the game. If you really know what you're doing he is a real threat. Ken Kicks Ass Philly's favorite Gamblin Baby, It's just too powerful! Posted by Cronk on 03:22:2001 04:51 AM: Good point Shin. Posted by DAMAGE on 03:22:2001 06:55 AM: Here's what I like to do with ken, and I'm only a beginner. To keep the pressure with ken I jump while calling the assist and do hurricane kicks, that makes ken advance temendously while attacking, and it has a lot of priority(you have to check the distance and angle between short and roundhouse). if you think they are waiting for your assist to come out don't call him and either do the hurricane kick or just jump. another tidbit would be against cable, you dash towards him and he does a AHVB but not before you canceled your dash with the dragon punch(again check timing differences between jab and fierce)and landed safe on the other side, then do a combo(well not a combo but "the combo") this also works with akuma but better, say you have akuma and some other character vs cable with cyclops aaa, you do the same and since his DP hits cyclops aaa and since you can cancel the DP into the fireballs super you would be hitting the assist hard then cancel into more supers. basically you will always be looking to do two things the super(punch one) and the combo(launcher,jab,hurricane kick) and will always be about half screen away from the opponent. His assist is super useful(the aaa one) and his roll is kind of useful but don't use it as your main strategy. hope this helps and I'll see you at the SHGL tourney if you go, if not at B5. "IF YOU'RE NOT BLOCKING, YOU'RE GETTING HIT" http://cgs.cgirealm.com/mai/001/004500.gif http://cgs.cgirealm.com/mai/001/9803.gif http://www.bearchive.com/~mansion/gif/mai_winfan.gif Posted by Lord Doom on 03:22:2001 06:03 PM: That stategy will get you killed DAMAGE, I will put a million bucks on it. I tried this to my friend with Ken, Sent, Cable when he had Cable, CapCom, Blackheart. All you really have to do to beat Ken is use your own assist as a shield and AHVP his ass while he's hurricane kicking. On the other hand I had some unsurprising success with Ryu, Strider, and some other character(can't remember) against him. Just thought I would let you know. NOW YOU FACE DOOM! http://www.dragonballmanga.hpg.com.br/gifs/gohangif1.gif Posted by Cronk on 03:22:2001 08:04 PM: Nah doom hes right, and if youve played this game for more than 2 days you know that.Kens hurricane kick pressure is decent when used correctly. guanrteed youll get to cable during the round. once you do, just wait for him to fu-- himself.if hes in the corner, jus push block his assist to force cable back to the corner, or mix in a throw if he turtles any further. im not saying by any standands that cable with assists will lose to ken w/assist; but a draw during that match up his a win for ken. All this again is assuming cable plays a flawless keep away.(and he will have to) Ive seen duc do it in person and on tape. belive it. thats why i say what i do. Posted by DAMAGE on 03:22:2001 10:04 PM: to lord doom: cronk is right, what I meant is not to say that ken + assist(storm projectile works the best for me) will beat cable + assist but you will sure give him a tough match and meaby win, I don't think you see the potencial of the hurricane kick, so what I want you to do is jump forward with kick and cancel into hurricane kick, you'll see what I mean. against characters other than cable is a somewhat good pressure, so if you don't fuck up, you can hold your ground, and that's what is important. tidbit #2 dash forward and block, to make the opponent call his aaa then do the punch super if the main point character is within half screen away and on the ground, he'll be forced to block while the assist gets hit and then you DHC(delay hyper combo) into hail storm(that's what I do), remember don't use any one technique as your main strategy, mix them up and keep moving a lot, DO NOT GET PREDICTABLE!!! "IF YOU'RE NOT BLOCKING, YOU'RE GETTING HIT" http://cgs.cgirealm.com/mai/001/004500.gif http://cgs.cgirealm.com/mai/001/9803.gif http://www.bearchive.com/~mansion/gif/mai_winfan.gif Posted by The Green Trench Coat on 03:22:2001 10:17 PM: quote: Originally posted by HyperViperSniper: thank you..I totally agree with you.. Ken VS Cable one on one is toast...any GOOD Cable player should RAPE a Ken player everytime.. Ken has an assist and his Hurricane kick THATS IT.. his roll is pointless... his fireball is pointless.. his uppercut VS Cable would get an AHVB before he even hits the ground... Ken just isnt well rounded...sorry folks.. he NEEDS a good assist to stand on both feet..thats just the way it is.. forget the Ryu Akuma part...Ken just isnt god in this game..he isnt even CLOSE to top tier.. his assist is the ONLY thing that keeps him on the second tier bracket... other than that ..he isnt really good against any beamer character ANY of them... beamers RAPE Ken all day..and if they can fly its even worse.. ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! <IMG SRC="http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif"> Look into my eyes....see the realness? Actually I'd have to disaggree.. without assist a good ken will beat a good cable. Ken's air game is good. Not the best. but it's good good enough.. and as far as what jin master was saying It's true you can pressure your opponents to the upper corners of the screen. Cable's got an air hyper viper beam... and.. er... oh wait that's it. The invincible dp will take you a long way in the one on one fight the air hurricane kick glitch will finish off cable before anything else seems to matter. but of course that is only on a one on one. with no assists. This is just my 2 cents. I got raped in my tourney using Hulk, Tron, Sentinel. I hate shotos.. all shotos. and I really don't like fireball characters because I feel Distance fighting (except dhalsim) sucks. So keep that in mind.. I'm a bit biased against shotos in general. http://home.att.net/~mjlopez/sakura/1runaway.gif "God damn green trench's fireball is closing in *pant, pant*.. How was I supposed to know he doesn't like chicks..." Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:23:2001 04:27 AM: Ken cant hang with Cable one on one...sorry... If that was the case you would see Ken winning on tourney teams and NOT Cable HVS ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif Look into my eyes....see the realness? Posted by Dynamyte2U on 03:23:2001 06:19 AM: HyperViperSniper>> Ryu being the best of the shotos??????? He barely beats out Sakura!!!! Ryu is one of the worst characters in the game. I laugh at you. As for Ken, he isn't THAT great either. Not 2nd tier and DEFINATELY not in the top 5. I'd say he belongs in the third tier. First of all, he has his massive air-hurricane kick. Second of all he has an awesome assist. Otherwise, he's not that good. He's a solid character, but not among the best. The Shotos (Total 56 character ranking in parentheses): 1. Ken (23) 2. Akuma (37) 3. Ryu (47) 4. Sakura (48) 5. Dan (54) Posted by TS on 03:23:2001 06:52 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dynamyte2U: The Shotos (Total 56 character ranking in parentheses): 1. Ken (23) 2. Akuma (37) 3. Ryu (47) 4. Sakura (48) 5. Dan (54) I understand you putting such a large gap between Ken and the other Shotos, even though i don't really agree with it. But the gap between Akuma and Ryu isn't 10 characters. Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:23:2001 11:50 AM: quote: Originally posted by Dynamyte2U: HyperViperSniper>> Ryu being the best of the shotos??????? He barely beats out Sakura!!!! Ryu is one of the worst characters in the game. I laugh at you. As for Ken, he isn't THAT great either. Not 2nd tier and DEFINATELY not in the top 5. I'd say he belongs in the third tier. First of all, he has his massive air-hurricane kick. Second of all he has an awesome assist. Otherwise, he's not that good. He's a solid character, but not among the best. The Shotos (Total 56 character ranking in parentheses): 1. Ken (23) 2. Akuma (37) 3. Ryu (47) 4. Sakura (48) 5. Dan (54) Sakura and Dan are not Shotos... and Ryu is better than Ken all around.. Akuma is worse... I laugh @ you for thinking Sakura is considered a Shoto.. and Dan has a completely different style of martial arts.. pay more attention to the game.. HVS ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif Look into my eyes....see the realness? Posted by State of Nature on 03:23:2001 12:18 PM: Ryu is definitely not better than Ken all around. Ken's AAA alone makes him better than all the other shotos. His speed, shoryureppa (instant start up and invincibility in 1/3 screen), and air hurricane glitch put him way past Ryu's one trick of ahvbing a shinkuu hadoken. Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:23:2001 12:26 PM: quote: Originally posted by State of Nature: Ryu is definitely not better than Ken all around. Ken's AAA alone makes him better than all the other shotos. His speed, shoryureppa (instant start up and invincibility in 1/3 screen), and air hurricane glitch put him way past Ryu's one trick of ahvbing a shinkuu hadoken. I have seen too many times when the Shoryureppa doesnt connect the second set of uppercuts..and he gets nailed... An assist doesnt make a character good when they are tagged in.. Without a fireball the running characters can rape him.. Ryu is better because @ least he can throw something @ them to make them block giving him enough time to move in.. Ken in the air is a sitting duck unless he has launched them..and That would require what?? getting close..which with Storm and Doom is almost impossible.. If those two dont want to get touched by Ken they wont.. a good storm player can stay away from ken the entire match.. same thing with Doom.. I can use Doom against ken and keep him grounded the entire match.. and I play Ken AND Doom I know the limitations... HVS ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif Look into my eyes....see the realness? Posted by CykoClops on 03:23:2001 02:42 PM: top tier? ROFLOL ken isn't cyclops, i hope you could distinguish between the two http://home.iprimus.com.au/dittmanshum/cykoclops.gif Posted by State of Nature on 03:23:2001 08:22 PM: [QUOTE]Originally posted by HyperViperSniper: [B] "An assist doesnt make a character good when they are tagged in.." True, I never argued that. That's still not addressing my argument. Ryu has no good assists. Ken has one of the best assists in the game (breaks strider/doom, goes through blackheart demons, has invincibility). I argued that Ken has an amazing assist, and Ryu has jackshit in that department. Neither Ken nor Ryu make good characters when tagged in. They're both pretty bad. But if I had to choose one as a third character, I'd pick the one with a top-tier assist. "Without a fireball the running characters can rape him.." Does this imply that Ryu's slow, single hit fireball makes him any better suited against running characters? Ryu's hadoken, even the shinkuu, can't do anything about a good Dhalsim or Storm runaway. I fail to see what a fireball has to do with dealing with runaway. If anything, Ken's AAA, DP, and Shinryuken all make him better suited to dealing with runaway than Ryu. "Ryu is better because @ least he can throw something @ them to make them block giving him enough time to move in.." The way this is phrased leads me to believe you are talking about the regular hadoken, since Ryu can't move in while doing the shinkuu. That said, Ryu's fireball is indeed better than Ken's, but it still sucks and shouldn't be used. It dies to beams and typhoons, and doesn't help against airdashers or teleporters. I don't see Ryu's fireball being worth more than Ken's AAA. "Ken in the air is a sitting duck unless he has launched them..and That would require what?? getting close..which with Storm and Doom is almost impossible.." Does Ryu's Shinkuu hadoken make him that much better in the air? Neither can fly or airdash or teleport. They both suck in the air, and I don't think either is meant to be played that way. Ryu's AHVBed Shinkuu gives him a quick way to hit people across the screen. Ken's Shoryureppa gives him an instant way to hit people within a third of the screen. "If those two dont want to get touched by Ken they wont.. a good storm player can stay away from ken the entire match.. same thing with Doom.." This is all irrelevant unless you can convincingly argue it doesn't apply to Ryu. We are discussing who is better, Ken or Ryu. Telling me Ken's weaknesses that he shares with Ryu doesn't further your side of the argument in any way. "I can use Doom against ken and keep him grounded the entire match.." Good for you. Fierce shoryuken goes through pink shit. Also, I think Ken can wavedash under it, but I have to test that. In a nutshell, I'm arguing Ken is better than Ryu for the following reasons: 1. Top tier assist makes him a good third character, mostly used just for his assist. (Ryu lacks a comparatively good assist) 2. More damaging aircombo than Ryu. While it's true neither character is guaranteed to get off an aircombo, should I have a choice between either I would take Ken's. 3. Invincible within 1/3 screen Shoryureppa, instant startup. IMO more useful than Ryu's AHVB shinkuu, cause it's faster and has invincibility. The only thing I see that Ryu has as an advantage is he takes hits better. Your points about runaway are moot, since both Ken and Ryu die to runaway, and Ken would have a better chance against upper screen runaway. Posted by Iceman on 03:23:2001 09:35 PM: Ryu is the worst shoto hands down. He doesn't have a good assist. He can't do crap at the point, he's damn near useless. Best shoto at the point: Akuma. Stamina or no stamina, Akuma can kill anyone in two combos (not positive about Sentinel, but he's the only one who may require 3). Akuma is faster then Ryu, has the same weak beat Ryu has, Ken comes close, only needed two combos to kill most people (high stamina will require 3). Ken is comparable with speed, and has much better stamina. Akuma has the teleport which will give him some hope, be it very little, to escape traps. Akuma can use the teleport for calling assists, then crossing up. Best shoto as an assist: Ken. Ken has the most invincible (longest window, goes through beams and physical objects) AAA. It doesn't set up combos for crap, but if you are worried about invincibility more then anything else, Ken works. Akuma is second, with his hurricane kick assist setting up so much people with easy combos. Ryu loses out since his DP has no range (Akuma's is better), his hurricane kick doesn't set up crap, and a fireball assist is next to useless. IMO, the question of who's better, Ken or Ryu, is stupid. Ken has more speed, and does better combo damage. The only thing Ryu has the a beat super to safely punish assists, but it needed to hit harder. Ryu's fireball is pointless. Ken's fireball is just as useful as Ryu's. Both are great combo tools, but nothing else. The arguement shouldn't be who's better Ken or Ryu, it should be Ken and Akuma (a good question). Ken top 5?!? LoL, let me guess, Jin is top 5 too. They are both similar. They have amazing assists, but are both crap as point characters. Jin is worse, but Ken, but I just wanted to make a point. "...I'll string you up from a big ass tree, with a sign around your neck that says 'Whack MC'"--MC Hawking Posted by HyperViperSniper on 03:23:2001 11:10 PM: quote: Originally posted by Iceman: Ryu is the worst shoto hands down. He doesn't have a good assist. He can't do crap at the point, he's damn near useless. And Ken can??? Alone he is just as bad off as any shoto..Ken and Ryu BOTH have problems when fighthing one on one...but my argument stands...Whether ken is FAST or NOT Ryu can play a distance game which is good when you are low on life...Ken has a fucking hard time getting in there to attack.. quote: Posted by Iceman Best shoto at the point: Akuma. Stamina or no stamina, Akuma can kill anyone in two combos Okay exactly what combos are those..He cant Kill Juggs in two combos..he cant kill blackheart in two combos.. Ummm he cant kill Cable in two combos...oh top of that..How is he suppose to take the damage to get in there??? quote: Posted by Iceman Akuma is faster then Ryu, has the same weak beat Ryu has, Ken comes close, only needed two combos to kill most people (high stamina will require 3). Ken is comparable with speed, and has much better stamina. Akuma has the teleport which will give him some hope, be it very little, to escape traps. Akuma can use the teleport for calling assists, then crossing up. Okay what world are you living on? What big combo is this that Akuma and Ken can do that can kill someone in two combos..THE ONLY combo that large is Ryus Punch..Fireball..cancel into Super Fireball..that combo alone does almost 50% damage...no other Shoto has that combo...they might be able to pull it off..but it doesnt do ANYWHERE that amount of damage.. And speed isnt the issue here...I agree that speed is important and ken and akuma are faster..but Ryus is more solid..you can count on his moves when its down on the wire.. quote: Posted By Iceman Best shoto as an assist: Ken. Ken has the most invincible (longest window, goes through beams and physical objects) AAA. It doesn't set up combos for crap, but if you are worried about invincibility more then anything else, Ken works. Akuma is second, with his hurricane kick assist setting up so much people with easy combos. Ryu loses out since his DP has no range (Akuma's is better), his hurricane kick doesn't set up crap, and a fireball assist is next to useless. I agree with you there...Ryu has crap assist..but I never use Ryu as an assist I use him as my point man.. If I have to use him as an Assist his AA works fine for me..Invincible or not it does the job.. Look @ Cyclops and Psylocke...theirs ARENT Invincible and they are still used in tournies..I havent seen Ken in a tourney just because his assist in invincible..so that argument IMO goes right out the window.. quote: Posted By Iceman IMO, the question of who's better, Ken or Ryu, is stupid. Ken has more speed, and does better combo damage. The only thing Ryu has the a beat super to safely punish assists, but it needed to hit harder. Ryu's fireball is pointless. Ken's fireball is just as useful as Ryu's. Both are great combo tools, but nothing else. The arguement shouldn't be who's better Ken or Ryu, it should be Ken and Akuma (a good question). Okay useless..?? I just pointed out a way with Ryu to get more damage in a combo than Ken and Akuma.. The only and I do mean ONLY good combo Ken has is Launcher into Hurricane Kicks...that does TONS of damage....just about as much as Ryus Fireball Cancel into SuperFireball..do that combo with Ryu I just told you and see if it doesnt do lots of damage.. Oh and saying that fireballs are useless...Look @ Dan..without a decent fireball he has the same problem as Ken.."getting in there alone" its almost impossible against ANY top tiers..TRUST ME ON THIS..I have seen it happen enough times to know what I am talking about... I cant believe we are even arguing this... Ryu Ken Akuma.. that is the way they are ranked...IMO ONE ON ONE... This never was a thread about Kens assist.. If we rank it for Assists..then it would be Ken Akuma Ryu.. If we rank it for Supers it would be Akuma Ken Ryu see it changes.. Overall left alone Ryu is a much better character.. Why cant you guys see that?????? I am not arguing that his assist is better than Kens..damn it... HVS ********************** HVS...Believe that! Cause its all in the TRUENESS!!! <IMG SRC="http://publish.hometown.aol.com/ericisair/myhomepage/bannerhvseyes.gif"> Look into my eyes....see the realness? [This message has been edited by HyperViperSniper (edited 03-23-2001).] Posted by State of Nature on 03:24:2001 01:23 AM: Hey HVS, Take a deep breath. You're getting realy defensive, and you don't have to. "I cant believe we are even arguing this... Ryu Ken Akuma.. that is the way they are ranked...IMO ONE ON ONE... This never was a thread about Kens assist.." Actually, earlier you stated that Ryu is overall better than Ken. In MvC2, overall does not mean one on one. In a one on one fight it's still debatable whether Ryu is better than Ken or not, but I thought I'd point this out for the record. "The only and I do mean ONLY good combo Ken has is Launcher into Hurricane Kicks...that does TONS of damage....just about as much as Ryus Fireball Cancel into SuperFireball.." OK, so they both have equally damaging combos. This cancels out between the two. So does the fact they both die to runaway. "Ryu has crap assist..but I never use Ryu as an assist I use him as my point man.." Ryu can't do anything on point that Cable can't do better. And Cable has better assists to boot. This isn't related to the Ken vs Ryu discussion, but I'm just curious why you'd use Ryu. At least Ken offers an invincible assist. "If I have to use him as an Assist his AA works fine for me..Invincible or not it does the job.." Does the job? OK, have blackheart throw demons at you and do Ryu's AAA. Hear, let me get you a bandaid. Now use Ken's AAA. Now THAT'S getting the job done. OK, now imagine you are getting chipped by strider doom. Do Ryu's AAA. Ouch, sorry man. Now try with Ken's AAA. That is the definition of getting the job done. Same thing with Doom's photons. Ryu's AAA does not "do the job." "Look @ Cyclops and Psylocke...theirs ARENT Invincible and they are still used in tournies..I havent seen Ken in a tourney just because his assist in invincible..so that argument IMO goes right out the window.." Point 1: Cyclops's assist does have invincible frames. Point 2: Cyke and Psi can rushdown, Ryu can't. Cyke can also chip and battery. Ken can do limited Rushdown, which IMO is worth more than Ryu's "keepaway" game. Seriously, Ryu's "keepaway" can be beaten with any beam or beam assist, or even Ken's shoryureppa can blow through it. Point 3: I'm sure Ken is used in tournies as a counter character. So to reiterate my point, overall Ken is indisputably a better character than Ryu in MvC2. Waaaaay better assist, equally useful super, combo which does the same damage as ryu WITHOUT the need for a super, faster (though he takes hits worse), and a mashable throw. These points aren't arguable, and you haven't addressed the points in my last post. As an overall character, Ken is better than Ryu. I think I've been pretty convincing, if you still disagree, maybe you can make a post and ask Viscant, Duc, or Micah? I don't think anybody else doubts Ken's superiority to Ryu in this game. Posted by DAMAGE on 03:24:2001 02:14 AM: You guys are only making hypothesis here and disscussing about theoretical stuff, get up and get out and practice what I said earlieer on this thread, you will completely agree "IF YOU'RE NOT BLOCKING, YOU'RE GETTING HIT" http://cgs.cgirealm.com/mai/001/004500.gif http://cgs.cgirealm.com/mai/001/9803.gif http://www.bearchive.com/~mansion/gif/mai_winfan.gif Posted by Lord Doom on 03:24:2001 03:47 AM: quote: Originally posted by State of Nature: "Without a fireball the running characters can rape him.." Does this imply that Ryu's slow, single hit fireball makes him any better suited against running characters? Ryu's hadoken, even the shinkuu, can't do anything about a good Dhalsim or Storm runaway. I fail to see what a fireball has to do with dealing with runaway. If anything, Ken's AAA, DP, and Shinryuken all make him better suited to dealing with runaway than Ryu.] Excuse me. What the hell. You want to use a Shinryuken against a runaway character. Ummm....sure. And about Ryu's uppercut assist. It does have an invincible start up. I've called him out during an AHVB and while he did not make it through, it took some time before he got hit by the beam. Plus, against most rushdown, note I said most, that assist is pretty effective. It hits hard and sends them far, far away. Not saying that his assist is better than Ken's because its obviously not, but it does have its uses. Ryu's fireball doesn't have that much lag time either, you can block about half-a-second afterwards same as the other shotos, but unlike the others, you can follow it up. His hurricane kick hits hard, can be hit multiple times in an air combo if done correctly, and sets up his Shinkuu Hadouken in his ground combo. And for me, the most important thing, he has reliable supers that provide no surprises such as throwing yourself at an opponent hitting them and then having them block halfway through it while just screaming "Hit Me, Hit Me!" a.k.a. Ken, Akuma. I have yet to see someone block halfway through a Shinkuu Hadouken, Shin Shoryuken, or Shinkuu Tatsumaki Sempuken(sp?). He can do the same shit that Ken can do by continuously air hurricane kicking at you while calling out your assists. The real downside to Ken IMO is that he must be near you to even try to hit you, and in a world of AAA I'd at least like to have the option of being able to run. NOW YOU FACE DOOM! http://www.dragonballmanga.hpg.com.br/gifs/gohangif1.gif Posted by Iceman on 03:24:2001 04:33 AM: HVS, does that Ryu combo (standing fierce, hadoken, shinku hadoken) do "that" much damage? I honestly don't know. I don't have my DC around to test it, so I will take your word for it until proven other wise. As for Akuma's big combo. Launch, jab (isn't necessary, but makes the combo easier) xx Roundhouse Hurricane Kick (4 hits) xx Air Fireball Super. This does nearly 100 pts of damage (forgot the exact damage). Once again, Akuma is the only shoto who can do 50% damage on Sentinel. As for Ryu vs. the other shotos. Since when did Ryu have a distance game? He actually has a beam super and average stamina. Yes, Akuma has by far the worst stamina. He cannot afford to take any hits. Ken is much like Akuma, with speed, and better stamina. IMO, Akuma and Ken are still better 1 on 1 then Ryu. At least Akuma has a chance of getting close with his speed and teleport. Ryu will have the hardest time getting close. All his stamina will do is delay the inevitable, his dying because he cannot get close to do any damage. Posted by Ug the caveman on 03:24:2001 08:57 AM: Just to throw in my two cents. To HyperViperSniper - you say Ryu "can play a distance game". If by that, you mean he has a (super) fireball, well yes, he has those. The problem is that even a full-screen single-hit fireball is next to worthless in this game. Beams go straight through it, assists nullify it, good rushdown people can get around it EASILY...the only people it works against are other people who are crap, like Zangief (and even Mech Zangief can give Ryu a hard time). Shinkuu Hadouken is overrated by far too many people. It does decent damage, and it's a beam super that he can perform in the air - that's IT. It isn't enough to make Ryu "overall better" than Ken, and it certainly isn't enough to make Ryu a contender. Ryu is a slow character with crap keep-away, crap rushdown, crap runaway and crap assists. Ken is a slightly faster character, with crap keep-away, decent rushdown, crap runaway and a great assist. Even if you want to talk about one-on-one, a good Ryu can NOT keep a good Ken out. The execution and recovery on his fireball is too slow - he has to anticipate where Ken will be, and if he guesses wrong, then Ken gets right up in his face, no problem. Posted by *Magneto* on 03:24:2001 09:08 AM: Ken is very good.Hes better than Ryu in MvsC2 and I like the way he links his specials into a combo on the ground.Thats very good and he does slright damage but I am getting sick of Magneto. http://www.tagmonkey.homestead.com/files/M920tag4.gif *Magneto* is an action and a person...? All times are GMT. The time now is 10:54 PM. Show all 39 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.